Whatever it is you do, you’ve been impacted by communication technology in some way, shape, or form. And the rate of change in communication tech right now is staggering.
It usually leaves us with a lot of questions like “What sort of apps am I supposed to be using? What is the best software or tech that I should be incorporating into my work? And do I really need to do the whole online video thing?”
If you have ever asked these questions, today’s guest is the guest for you! I sit down with tech wizard and video maestro David Papp to talk about how to make communication tech less painful in your business and how to fearlessly dive into creating video content to amplify your business’ voice!Who cares about whether it doesn’t look good, or it isn’t perfect, because those are excuses and there will always be excuses that you have to surmount. Click To Tweet
Watch the interview below, or scroll down to read the transcript.
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And now, it’s over to you – what’s your favorite communication tech tool? Is it video? A certain type of editing software? An app that makes your voice sound like a chorus of angels? Share it with me over here on Twitter, or if Facebook’s your game, post it over here on my Facebook page. Don’t forget to Like the video and Subscribe to my YouTube channel!
Entrepreneur, author, speaker, and all around tech geek, David Papp has been helping people make sense of complicated tech topics for over 25 years. This everyday tech guy has been featured on keynote stages, television, radio, newspapers and magazines, to weigh in on a variety of topics including tech security, social media, digital marketing, cryptocurrency and more. David is the founder of Microtek Corporation and MTek Digital Agency, and is a member of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers.
Lauren: David! Thank you very much for being here with us today! Now you have been in the tech consulting space for 20 plus years now?
David Papp: More than that!
Lauren: More than that?
David: Yeah, since I was 14, so it has been a few years.
Lauren: You’re like the Will Wheaton of IT consulting. You’ve been there forever.
David: Yeah, I actually consider that a benefit and a privilege that I’ve actually had to set me where I am right now.
Lauren: Right. Well it makes a lot of sense. Like you’ve seen all of the changes that have happened over… basically before the Internet was a thing for most people. You were right in there at the get go with that. Over your 20 plus years of experience, where do you see people really struggling the most with technology?
David: Honestly, I call it the fear factor. What I’ve observed is that as people get older, they instill more fear into doing, things trying things out, pushing that button on your computer because they are fearing that they will break something. That’s why children are so awesome at technology and advance. They just say “I get my 8 year old to do it for me.” because they don’t have a fear of breaking things, and if they do, whatever. It is part of life being a kid.
Adults are worried about the consequences of that, so because of that fear they are no longer willing to experiment and just try things out.
Lauren: With kids it is like playing with Lego. With adults it is like they are renovating their kitchen, so you better bloody well not get this wrong.
David: Basically. That is what we need to overcome. The kids have this inquisitive nature of “Hmm, I wonder what this does.” If I need to figure it out they will go and keep poking around until they can get it to work. Adults just don’t do that anymore.
Lauren: Why do you think we are afraid of breaking things? Why the older we get, the stakes become higher for us?
David: Well for one thing, if I kid breaks something I don’t think they have to fix it necessarily, it may fall on the parents. So you realize that if you break it, you might have to fix it. You get kinda stuck on, how am I going to fix this thing. Overtime you become disconnected further and further from the technology.
And honestly, when you sit down at a computer right now, because of my background having always grown up with it, you learn a new program by trying it out. It is kind of intuitive like “This button must do this.” or, “I’m trying to do that.” If the people don’t have the basic foundation for that, they don’t know where to start. So you put a new program in front of them and it may be intuitive to one person, for another it may seem completely alien.
Lauren: Right. It is a total mystery. If you do it enough, “Oh yeah this kind of looks like that thing!”
David: I think that it’s what it comes down to. Practice makes perfect, it is experience, just keep trying things out. Honestly, what is the worst case? You accidentally, what, screw up your computer and have to get it fixed by someone or reinstall the program? Or you know, if you have backups, you would feel better if you accidentally deleted the files you can go back on the backups. It is just thinking of what that preventative maintenance might be, or what those risks really are.
Honestly, we just say try it out. And one thing people also don’t do enough is create what I call a sandbox environment, that you can play in. Have a piece of crap computer, or an alternative Facebook or Youtube account that you can just mess around with and you don’t really care what happens with it.
Lauren: So, maybe this is related to the fear, but technology, communication technology in particular, has been moving freakishly fast. So not only do we have to play with this stuff and get over the fear, but we also have to be willing to keep up with the updates that seem to be happening every 5 minutes. What tech development do you think has made the biggest impact over the past 5 years or so? And by the way you are not allowed to say smartphones!
David: So, if we touch on that point, we live a linear life, and technology grows exponential. That comes back to Gordon Moore, who created Moore’s law in 1966, he is the founder of Intel. And he said that technology doubles roughly every 18 months, to 2 years. And it has held true. Since 1966, this has held true that technology is doubling.
So what you get is an exponential factor, 12and you keep incrementing, 23… And you get 2, 4, 6, 8, 16, 32, 64, and soon you are in the millions and billions and that is what is happening, for comparison’s sake.
On that note, the biggest shift in the last 5 years, coming back to your question, is we are still very much stuck on archaic input controls. It is still keyboard and mouse. And that slows us down and as we move into smartphones and other technology, what they are trying to do is get into voice recognition, alternative minority report, and you know Iron Man controls that you pitch around with holographics and such.
This stuff is becoming reality, it is becoming now. Where the big virtual headsets are coming on and the different displays, and those are the advancements that will be able to better use technology. It will be more intuitive. You know when we starting moving all this stuff onto the Cloud, right and the Cloud is your email and your apps, there’s these subscription models with Microsoft and Adobe moving their software onto the Cloud.
People have been resisting, but now they are starting to see the benefits. “Hey my data exists up here, and I can access it on all my devices! My devices can talk: my phone, my tablet, my work, if I go on vacation I can access this stuff.” There are some privacy and security concerns that come hand in hand with that and that is still being addressed. We are moving to a point where technology is becoming more convenient and it is not supposed to be a burden.
Lauren: I like that idea. It is not a burden!
David: That’s right! And on that note, a frequent question I get asked is “David, Android versus iPhone, which one do I pick?” My quick answer to you is pick the one that your relatives and your family use because they will be your support group. When you get stuck, you know what to do and can ask somebody. If you go and buy something different all the time and try to stay at the forefront of technology, you will be the one who has to figure it out and there will be no one to help you. So kinda go mainstream with your close circle of family and friends because they will be your free tech support.
Lauren: Yeah, that is a strategy that I will fully and happily admit to doing. If there is anything, I am not a bleeding edge tech adopter, I like to think that I am tech friendly but I generally want, at the very least, my friend Rory to have tried it. And if I am really curious, you, and then I get your opinion on it.
David: And that is good! You have to surrender yourself to the right people.
Lauren: Fortunately, there’s a lot of people out there, it is pretty readily available: people’s opinions and their views on the tech and what it’s doing. So in terms of the technology moving away from the mouse and keyboard type input, towards more intuitive input, where do you see that going in the short term? Because like the thing that popped into my mind, honestly, was Google Glass.
David: So Google Glass, you are taking the right direction here. The next step is not full virtual reality it is augmented reality, AR. What that means is Google Glass or whatever device is super imposing additional information that you can view but using the actual reality of what you are seeing. I will give you an example: You are in a library looking at some books and you zoom in on one, or whatever, and it gives you a review, it looks it up. If there is a movie, it gives an IMDB report to it. You can get additional information.
An example there that really took off, that lasted a year before it fizzled out, was Pokemon Go, the game that came out. That was a genius move, number one, because that generation of people willing to use that technology grew up with Pokemon. So they had a bind, they didn’t have to educate them on what it was. And number two, they were using augmented reality getting people outdoors. It was an excuse to visit these gyms and portals everywhere to get their stuff done.
I think that is just a taste of what is coming but it is here now. I mean everybody loves the WiiU, Xbox and those kinds of games where it is watching your body and how it moves and interacting with the game. I think that everybody should have something like that. It gets you some physical exercise, it is fun and you are doing it in the comfort of your home. We are going to see more and more of that stuff becoming more and more affordable.
On that note of affordability,it’s kind of an interesting thing. We live in a consumable society, right, so if my printer runs out of toner ink, it is almost cheaper to throw it out, which is sad, and buy another one bundled with it. That is the problem- repairing your technology or buying the consumables for it, are more expensive than getting a replacement. That is an issue, but something we have to live with.
Lauren: There’s pros and cons.
David: There’s pros and cons and I hope that everybody has feeling and opinions on it.The fact of the matter is technology is growing and will continue to do so at an exponential rate and it’s being done for convenience. Honestly, that is what is comes down to.
Lauren: Some of the conveniences are really quite extraordinary. The stuff that I am generally interested in is how does it make communication easier.
One client that I am working with – Ledcor Construction – they were working developing a surgical room, specifically I believe for cardiac surgery. The way that they brought their designs to the surgical team to get their feedback, was they put them in a VR environment. They had headsets, I believe they had touch sensitive gloves, and in that environment, the surgeons were able to interact with the space LedCore had designed for them. “So yes, the height of this table is correct. We need to move a portion of the room further away.”
These are inputs that without that, Ledcor would have basically needed to build the room. Before the surgeons could really go in and try it out. So I mean the degree that it just expanded their ability to communicate with one another, in terms of their needs, in terms of how it was working, is extraordinary.
It is like Pokemon to heart surgery.
David: What you are talking about there is more telepresence. You are able to be in a different geographical location than where they are interacting, a physical interaction or something like we are doing right now, where we are having a zoom based session and we are not at the same location but still interviewing.
Lauren: It is still happening. Something that you have been, this is knd of moving away from the VR, that you have been really heavily into over the past year, and that I have been leaning into, and a lot of small and medium businesses have been going into, is video. Oh yeah, and that is something that I really wanted to hit on with you today. You have built a creator studio which I have made ample use of, it is wonderful! You have been offering video services, you have been doing a lot of experiments with what you have been creating as long as the stuff your clients have been creating. Within all your experiments, what have you discovered that has kind of been a surprise? I would think not a lot surprises you in terms of tech, at this point.
Let me throw that curveball at you.
David: Yeah it is, it is a good one! What it comes down to actually, is not the technology, not the content and it is not everything. I will give the benefit of all those separately. Honestly it was coming out with organizing a proper work flow. If people can get through those first few and try it out and figure out the steps involved to get that done, that really what is… I actually didn’t appreciate the amount of work flow deetail that I had to think about to make it easy, to mass reproducing this stuff. T
That is why for somebody to just start it out on their own, I understand there is challenges to it. People don’t know where to begin! The audio, the lighting, the environment, the content, how do I get it, and what do you do with it, and how do you post it online, where do you post it online, and how do you brand it and tie all together. And what is the purpose? Because people will go “Well are people even watching this? What am I trying to get them to do?” But if you can get them to kinda work your way through that stuff… I’ll give you an example.
I started vlogging long time ago, 10 years ago. Honestly there were many times I felt like giving up, like nobody is even reading this stuff, who really cares?
Lauren: Shouting into a void.
David: It is! But you know what is cool, that you don’t realize or reap the benefits until later on in life. You’re building up a library of relevant content. And Google sees that and other people, and you can continue to refer to that. You can turn that into ebooks and books and whatever you want by repurposing that content. But you had to have it to begin with, you had to build up that library. I think that is where we are at with video.
Lauren: How is that with video? You take the video and oh okay I’ve got this post so I’m going to turn it into a podcast, I will spin it into a vlog, I will reformat it in five different ways and then send it out?
David: Good question! So my pitch to people is that video is a medium to use, it is a technology that essentially obtain content. That is really what it comes down to, relevant content. And that is what Google is all about. Google wants to be human, Google is like Pinocchio, and Google is sitting there and we no longer search on Google for plain old English words.
We search in complete sentences with punctuation. Even think of it, when you are dictating to Siri or whoever else on some of these voice apps, the recognition systems they are actual English sentences.
So if your blog post, if your title or heading, that matches exactly what that question was, Google is going to go “Hmm this person actually has the relevant answer so I should display that higher up in the ranking algorithm.” Everybody wants to get higher up on that coveted first page. So to get on that first page, Google wants to make sure that they send people to a place where they feel has the answer. Google is about providing answers to questions.
So if you think about it that way, our revelation as it evolved, you are basically created a FAQ database. We ask questions with answer. If you think about it that way, if you can weekly drip out content- and a video is just a mechanism to collect that content- you are just asking a question and getting an answer.
So one of the services we provide to our clients is where once a month, once every two months, once a quarter,, you come in and or we do it by zoom like this, we just ask you some frequently asked questions. And we can help you figure out what those are in a very casual interview like session. You don’t need preparation, you aren’t sweating about it being perfect because you’re staring at a camera right now. Because a lot of people have troubles with that, you are basically having a dialogue and answering questions.
And then you cut each one of those into a segment. Whether you want to send those out raw because you don’t have time, or knowledge, or effort, or cash flow to deal with it, or you want to brand them with your logo and a little intro/outro jingle or whatever, and leak it out on your channels, doesn’t matter to me. It is content.
But it doesn’t stop there! People are like “I got a piece of video, I popped it on Youtube, now what?” That is not the point, man! You get a transcript, you go to a place like you recommended to me, and I think it is gold is rev.com, you can’t compete with that, a dollar a minute per transcription. These frequently asked questions are only going to be one minute at most. So they will just cost you a dollar to transcribe.
You go and use that, and that is blog content. That is text, that is your relevance, that is your closed captioning, for either Facebook, Linkedin or Youtube, if you are doing [inaudible] uploads. That is where the power is.
Google doesn’t see a video, neither do people. Content, the text within, is searchable, they can see that. And so if you think of that, as you pointed out, ripping out the audio only track of your video, that is an instant podcast. Voilà! It is so easy to repurpose this stuff.
David: And again, don’t get overwhelmed that you have to all of this right up front. You can do this down the road because you are collecting these segments in the meantime. Whatever you do with it doesn’t matter to me, even if you don’t even… I would recommend you publish them. But if you don’t want to drip them out once a week, sit on them and then turn them into something eventually. You will notice a pattern.
And they can be raw. You’ve noticed that, I mean you have stepped up your game and everybody has got a cellphone. So everybody is walking around with a video camera right now. The problem is that it is kinda a shaky cam if you are holding it yourself, unless you are using a gimbal stabilizer. And the audio is not great and honestly you can have really crappy video, but if your audio track is crystal clear, it makes for a better experience.
David: So, this all on your topic of communication and I feel like if people use the basic tools, you can buy a wire lav mic, or a little shotgun mic for dollars. Seriously I buy on Amazon Prime, which I live off of, you get three packs of this wireless lav for under 10 dollars with free shipping. It is so cheap. You connect that into your smartphone, you clip it into your collar, you’ve got now crystal clear audio.
That is what I think people need to learn, or what are those quick wins. What are the easy things, the low hanging fruit, so I can make that experience that much better. Even just setting down your smartphone on a table, or a stand, or a tripod, is going to get you fairly good video. Otherwise sit down in a session like this, I am sure there are lots of people who would say “Hey, I would come interview you by zoom for fun! We can sit and meet somewhere and get a buddy to record you.” Because it is easier to talk to a person than to yourself in the middle of nowhere.
Lauren: Way easier! And actually that is something for anyone watching, holding back from doing video because you have tried, you’ve gotten your camera, your smartphone camera out, and you just go blank. Your throat closes up and you can’t get the words out. It is weird, yes, speaking to that little eye in the camera or on your webcam is very strange. But a great way of overcoming that friction is doing something like this, have someone interview you and actually have a conversation. It helps get you over that “Ah!” moment where again you are shouting into the void.
David: Exactly. And that person if they are good, they will help you probe and explore that. It becomes a very organic conversation. Many of your viewers may not even realize that none of what you and I are saying here is scripted. This is completely organic, we are just winging it!
Lauren: Be fair! There is a slight game plan!
Davis: Yes, there is.
Laurens: What would you actually, a great time for this question which is important, what would you say is the bare minimum that someone who wants to create videos should have, ready to go. And that can be bare minimum in terms of technology or in terms of ideas, or what. What does someone need to hit that record button and get it out there?
David: You know what, I am going to go back to the first thing we opened up in this segment here. Get over the fear and actually just try it. And look afterwards, what are some thing you want to change on it? And maybe ask a friend to take a look and make some comments. You aren’t necessarily going to use it, you might not purpose it, but you have got to try it. You have just got to get over it.
One big thing, we watch a lot of people online, people like Casey Neistat, Peter McKinnon, Gary Vaynerchuk, some of the big things that they all say is you just have to do it. Just do it. Honestly just try, because you are going to beat 50% of the population by just taking that step and actually doing it.
Who cares about whether it doesn’t look good, or it isn’t perfect, because those are excuses and there will always be excuses that you have to surmount. They will always prevent you from trying and moving forward. You will get more comfortable, it will get easier, and you will get your quick wins.
Quick wins? Audio. I think you should have some kind of mic. I don’t care what kind it is, there are a lot of recommendations. People can contact me offline if they want some, but honestly, they are all very inexpensive.
And then your video quality and the environment you are in. You don’t want kids screaming in the background, or a noisy environment, or wind blowing that you can’t hear what the person is saying, or the sun shining on you and you can’t even see anything. You just learn those things over time. But you learn those things by trying.
Lauren: Yeah, and that irritative process is really important. Like I have said, I know there will be people watching this who will be chewing their fingernails, thinking they need to have everything in place. Go back to some of my earliest videos on this channel, they are brutal!
David: At least you did it!
Lauren: But I put them out there. And what I found as I was creating the videos, the content starting coming more easily, but the areas I found a lot of friction in was mostly tech related. So, I wanted to get a better camera, I needed better lighting, I wanted a better setup. But I wasn’t about to invest thousands of dollars in a really great camera, or try to figure how to make a setup in my house which has small children pelting around it, work.
So, this isn’t just a plug for your studio services, but if you are watching this and you think “I want to get going but I just don’t have the right equipment.” If that is your excuse, look to see if there are any creator spaces in your community. Because it might have the studio, the camera, the lights, and have it all setup, and all you have to do is go in and hit record. If that takes away the friction, you don’t necessarily need to invest in the big stuff to access it.
David: I agree, and it is a good way to start and get some ideas to build your own if you want to.
Lauren: The friction that that can create is real. My Q and A series will be coming out right around the same time that this video will get released. And David I put off this project for two years, I have been sitting on this project for over two years because of tech. And what you said, I have now got a studio. Everyone out there, look for ways you can overcome your excuses and do this.
Now that being said, video is not for everyone because it does take a lot of time, it does take balls. Gonads of some variety.
David: Not necessarily, I am going to throw that out there. Depends on what your standards are because this is an evolution. I think that if you can collect the raw assets, what I mean by that is the raw video footage, just at least put them in a dropbox folder or something, they are sitting there build a library. You may not even have a brand.
There are services like Fiverr, there are people out there willing to do some templates. They might not be custom, it might not be what you want, but it is the next step up and it may not cost you much. They can create you a logo, they can create you an intro or outro for your branding. They can put it together for you and edit it and give you a finished product that is ready to upload to Youtube. They may even upload it for you. All of this is possible and fairly inexpensive.
If you can reduce your standards and try not to compete with the Jones’, even if they might have greener grass on the other side of the fence and you might be envious, that’s okay. Start and eventually you will get there.
Lauren: Right, right. So think I know the answer already, but would you say there is anyone who shouldn’t bother with video?
David: If you are somebody looking to expand your online marketing, looking to promote your brand, your organization, and you have a product or service you want to promote, whatever that might be, you need to get some eyeballs on it. You want to show up on Google or whatever various social channel.
I think video is an excellent way to collect content, and the reason I bring that up is a lot of people struggle with content. They don’t know what to talk about, even when they build their website, they are like “I don’t quite know what to put on these pages.” It becomes a stumbling block, it becomes something people really get stuck on. And because of that, when people come to us and say “Hey David, can you and your team build us a new website?” I tell them right upfront that this will be built on schedule, it will be ready, but you will be the one that holds up the process. We will be waiting on content from you and approvals, every single time.
Video would be a way to extract that. Video is not being used as a means to promote yourself online, though I think it is awesome. It might be a way to just collect content for yourselves and brainstorm.
I’ll give you an example. Have a boardroom meeting with some key stakeholders, where you are sitting there and they are like “So today we are going to talk about our website. And we want to talk about the kind of content we want to have on it.” Why not record the whole session? So you can look back at it and maybe even get the audio track transcribed. So you get a text version of all those great ideas everybody tossed around, to collect it.
So I am talking about videos being used purely as a collection method for content. You want actually use it and distribute it online publicly, that’s on you. But maybe you use it internally, in private just to collect the information.
Lauren: That is a great insight actually, just to use it as a collection tool. It doesn’t have to be public facing content.
David: Doesn’t have to be.
Lauren: And you might find some great public facing content in there once again that you can repurpose and blend into whatever else you put out there.
David: To me, I feel every single website has an explainer video on the homepage where you come to it and people don’t want to read anymore. People are just sitting there at night binge watching Netflix, their favourite show, and they are doing the swipe thing on their cell phones looking at Instagram or Facebook, whatever social networks.
And video is going to catch their eye on that. If they go onto website, they will want to click on a website that says under a minute or two, this is what we are about. This is what we have to offer, and then if you pique their interest, then they will go look at your website pages and poke around and read the content within to get more information. Up until that point, they’re going to leave right way if they can’t figure it out and they don’t know what you’re about.
We call that a bounce. And Google views bounces very negatively about you, more so than the traffic you generate coming to your website. So, I just feel, it is the way people are educating themselves now. The number one search term on Youtube now is how to. Just last fall, Youtube views have surpassed Google searches. It is three and a half billion per day.
Lauren: Oh, they’ve surpassed them now!
David: They’ve surpassed them. So they are living in the Youtube ecospace, and they are learning stuff. Somebody will say “Have you ever gone to Youtube? Well sure I wanted to know how to change my furnace filter. I wanted to know how to fix this thing.” It is where you go, it is a training mechanism.
The other thing is don’t sell, don’t be pushy on your videos and say me, me, me. Look at me, come to me, I can do this. What you have to do instead is shift your thoughts on this and give away your best content for free and establish yourself as an authority, an expert, in your space. That is how you are going to win.
People will naturally gravitate towards you. People don’t want to be sold to. People will find things and reach out. And maybe I will talk about the sales conversion at that point and strong CTAs (call to actions) and things like that. But don’t worry about that right now. Worry about establishing yourself as an authority and get recognized in your space.
Lauren: Right, and it will. The sales, the conversions will happen because you have proven that you got the goods. Be generous.
David: Very! Honestly you think you are giving away all your secrets? It doesn’t matter. People will still come to you because they are too lazy, they don’t have time, or they realize you are an expert. And they want you to package it all together for them and give a turn key. [inaudible]
Lauren: Or even they are just looking for that human connection. You might tell them something to their face that they saw in your blog but it is different when it is to your face.
Lauren: It is totally, totally, different.
We are going to start wrapping it up but thinking along those lines of generosity and information, you have a lot of info on your websites. I will use the plural for that. You have a fantastic package to your social spring course helping people basically to use social media a bit better. You have got information galore on your sites. So where can we find and access all that amazing tech and communication related content you put out there?
David: On that note, I have my person brand which is on my website davidpapp.com. I have a blog that I put out which is really essentially lately been morphed into video, so I am putting out a lot of video content, which appears on my David Papp Youtube channel.
More importantly, me and my business, me and my team, we have created a new brand about a year ago called MTek Digital and we are really pushing hard on education, teaching people awesome stuff with a whole ton of content including you, who has shown up on our channel, the MTek Digital Youtube channel. That is probably one of the better places to go to learn and to grab some tips and stuff.
But if you want to reach out, there are all the typical social media, websites where people are comfortable in. Some people like to connect to me on Linkedin, a lot of them are very active on Facebook. I think people kind of choose which one they are comfortable with
Honestly, what I am trying to push is Youtube, We are trying to push that as the main route of all the content, a nice generous library. It is categorized in appropriate playlists and it just goes about from there. Eventually all this stuff leans in, we get this big funnel. I am not even selling anything on the channel. We aren’t looking for anything. Right now we are literally just building a big library.
Lauren: And a library is fantastic. Once again it is very generous. You need to check out MTech Digital’s Youtube channel, David’s website, I will of course have links in the description down below. But the breath of your knowledge David and the sort of videos that you put out is amazing. There is videos on cryptocurrency, and blockchain, and privacy, and how to protect your information, privacy and cybersecurity. There is videos on content creation and to create good videos or good podcasts or whatever. There is so much learning to be had, on his sites, on his channel, on his Youtube channel, so make sure you check it out.
David, thank you so much for coming here today with us, and telling us a little bit about all of the incredible directions tech is taking us and our communication now and the very near future. For everyone at home, thank you for joining us and if you haven’t yet already, make sure you head to laurensergy.com and sign up for my newsletter. That is the best place where you can stay on top of interviews like this and other content that I am bringing out to you on a regular basis. Thank you so much for being here with us today and I look forward to seeing you on the next Talk Shop.